This transcript was created utilizing speech recognition software program. Whereas it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it could include errors. Please evaluate the episode audio earlier than quoting from this transcript and electronic mail transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions.
From “The New York Instances,” I’m Rachel Abrams. That is “The Each day.”
[THEME MUSIC]
At present, because the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas enters its last section, nobody is aware of who will management the way forward for Gaza — Israel, Hamas, or presumably President Trump. My colleague, Jerusalem Bureau Chief Patrick Kingsley, walks us by way of this delicate second and the questions hovering over the way forward for the battle.
It’s Wednesday, February 26.
Patrick, we’re within the last days of the primary section of the ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, which was outlined very clearly by way of what both sides needed to give to the opposite. And now we’re coming into into this subsequent section, which isn’t but negotiated and will result in extra talks, however it might additionally find yourself main simply to extra battle, which we’ll get to in a second. However simply to start out, how, in your estimation, has this primary a part of the method truly gone?
A number of mini crises apart, it has gone roughly to plan. And that plan was to alternate 33 hostages held in Gaza by Hamas and its allies for roughly 1,500 Palestinian prisoners and detainees held in Israeli jails. Simply to recap, initially of the battle, Hamas and its allies raided Israel, captured roughly 250 hostages, each lifeless and alive, introduced them again to Gaza.
A few of them have been exchanged in a earlier hostage-for-prisoner deal in late 2023. A handful have been rescued in Israeli army operations, however roughly 100 have been nonetheless in captivity in January when this ceasefire was sealed. And the deal permits for roughly a 3rd of them, most of them alive however a few of them lifeless, to be swapped for Palestinian prisoners who variously had been jailed 20 years in the past for his or her function in terrorist assaults on Israelis, but additionally a whole lot of Palestinians who had been arrested with out cost inside Gaza by the Israeli army and held in troublesome circumstances contained in the Israeli jail archipelago.
And as I say, the broad image is that these have largely gone as they have been anticipated to. However there have been some immensely traumatic scenes for each Israelis and Palestinians which have led to fixed fears that this preliminary ceasefire was about to break down.
Inform us about these.
Properly, each Saturday, the choreography would go like this. The hostages can be launched from Gaza. After which as soon as they have been free, the prisoners can be launched from Israel. However the spectacles of each releases drew immense ache and anger on each side.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
When the three or 4 hostages that have been alleged to be launched that day have been freed, they have been put up on stage in entrance of cheering crowds to bombastic music, typically set in opposition to banners that attacked Israel and sought to humiliate the Israeli army. The hostages themselves typically regarded extraordinarily gaunt, malnourished, starved, which despatched shock waves by way of Israeli society.
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
And generally they might be interviewed on stage, seemingly in opposition to their will, requested humiliating questions on their time in captivity or requested to ship messages to the Israeli political management.
[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]
And on the Palestinian aspect, there have been additionally some uncomfortable scenes of prisoners rising from Israeli prisons in very unhealthy form. A few of them have been pressured to put on garments that stated phrases to the impact of “We are going to by no means forgive. We are going to always remember,” a reference to the crimes that they have been jailed for 20 years in the past.
And so there was anger amongst each societies about the best way that these releases have been being performed. And that culminated in maybe probably the most unsettling and disturbing hostage launch ceremony of the lot final week, when the our bodies of three Israeli civilians from the identical household, two very younger boys, Ariel Bibas and his brother Kfir Bibas, 4 years previous and eight months previous respectively on the time of their seize in October 2023, and their mom, Shiri Bibas, a 32-year-old accountant.
These our bodies have been alleged to be launched again to Israel final Thursday. And so they have been handed over to members of the Pink Cross in entrance of huge crowds of Palestinians and in opposition to the visible backdrop of Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, trying like a vampire dripping with blood.
To indicate that it’s the prime minister’s fault that these three persons are lifeless.
Precisely. The Hamas declare was that these two very younger kids and their mom have been killed in Israeli airstrikes, and that Netanyahu and the Israeli army was responsible for his or her deaths, together with the deaths of tens of hundreds of Palestinians. And people photos of a vampiric Netanyahu appear to be caught to not solely the banner on the stage that was on the heart of this handing-over ceremony, but additionally on the coffins themselves.
And this was seen in Israel as enormously disrespectful, ghoulish, primarily. And that impression was taken to the n-th diploma as soon as the our bodies have been examined again in Israel. The Israeli army stated that the 2 boys weren’t killed in Israeli airstrikes, and that an post-mortem had revealed that they have been killed by militants inside Gaza after their seize.
After which they revealed one thing much more surprising, that the physique of their mom, Shiri Bibas, was not truly her physique in any respect. It was the physique of another person fully, maybe a Palestinian girl who had been despatched again both by mistake or by design to Israel. And this was a surprising piece of reports for the Israeli public.
This household had been one of many most important emblems of Israeli trauma on October the seventh. And so to see the spectacle of those two younger kids and their mom being returned on this means, after which on high of that, to be taught that the mom, Shiri, was, in actual fact, nonetheless in Gaza was an immensely triggering and retraumatizing occasion.
And was the physique of Shiri Bibas truly returned?
It was, finally. Hamas stated it searched once more within the place the place the Bibas household was buried alongside Palestinians killed throughout Israeli airstrikes sooner or later in the middle of the battle. And so they shortly discovered the best physique and returned it again to Israel. And that household was lastly in a position to have some extent of closure.
However the fury of the Israeli authorities didn’t die down as soon as Shiri Bibas’s physique was returned. The entire incident contributed to the Israeli determination to delay the discharge of the prisoners who have been meant to be exchanged for the Bibas’s our bodies.
I imply, all of this, as you stated, sounds simply so ghoulish, the parading of those emaciated individuals, this mix-up with the physique. Given the response to all of this inside Israel and the truth that it has, as you talked about, held up the return of those Palestinian prisoners, what’s Hamas pondering right here? What’s the technique? Why are the hostages being handled this fashion?
I believe there’s a couple of totally different causes. Partially, it’s seen as a counterpoint to the best way that Palestinian detainees and prisoners are being launched in what Palestinians see as a really humiliating method. But it surely’s additionally a method of projecting energy and authority. They need to remind each the Palestinians of Gaza and the individuals of Israel that regardless of 16 months of battle that was meant to pressure them from energy in Gaza, they’re very a lot nonetheless in cost.
And are they really in cost, given how a lot harm Israel has performed to Gaza, the infrastructure, killing their leaders, destroying the tunnels?
It’s onerous to know precisely what stage of authority or capability they’ve in Gaza, as a result of we’re not allowed in. The Israeli authorities continues to be not letting journalists into Gaza. Nonetheless, it does appear, from these movies and what reporting we’re in a position to do, that they’re nonetheless the dominant pressure in Gaza. And in the event that they need to set up a dramatic rally to ship off the our bodies of Israeli kids on their means again to Israel, they will very a lot try this.
And the message may be very clear. Regardless of the Israeli authorities has stated about killing hundreds and hundreds of Hamas militants, they nonetheless have some males left. They nonetheless have a lot of autos. They nonetheless have a lot of weapons. And any dialogue about the way forward for Gaza, and any dialogue about an finish to the battle has to take their presence under consideration.
Provided that Israel didn’t obtain its supposed objective of eliminating Hamas within the battle, the place does that go away the battle and the ceasefire on this subsequent section?
It leaves us in a really unsure place. All all through this final six weeks, because the hostages have been being exchanged for prisoners, Israel and Hamas have been alleged to have been negotiating, by way of mediators, a couple of extra wholesale settlement to finish the battle and in regards to the future governance of Gaza. As a result of they’ve such fully totally different visions for a way that ought to look, the 2 sides haven’t been in a position to even begin negotiations.
And which means we’re approaching the top of those 42 days that represent the primary section of the ceasefire, and that ends at midnight on Saturday evening, and not using a clear sense of what’s going to occur subsequent.
So what are the potential outcomes right here after Saturday evening? Are you able to simply stroll us by way of them?
The primary and probably final result is that the truce continues in a really casual, unstructured means, a minimum of for a couple of days. The wording of the present deal permits for the truce to proceed, even when there isn’t any settlement about how the truce ought to proceed, so long as there are negotiations nonetheless happening.
Another choice, and that is one thing that has been proposed in current days by Steve Witkoff, President Trump’s Center East envoy, is that there may very well be a quick formal extension of the ceasefire, kind of on the identical phrases that the ceasefire has been noticed to date. And that may contain an alternate of some extra hostages for a number of hundred extra prisoners. And it wouldn’t resolve the elemental disagreement about whether or not the battle ought to finish completely, or who ought to govern Gaza after the battle, however it could preserve the association going for an additional week, two weeks, possibly even three weeks.
The third choice — and it’s extraordinarily unlikely that they’ll attain this level — is that there is likely to be a deal about who ought to govern Gaza subsequent, ought to the battle finish completely. However that’s one thing that’s virtually inconceivable to achieve proper now, simply because the 2 sides are to this point aside about what that may seem like.
So if each side can not come to a deal by the weekend, or an extension as you described, is it potential that the battle is simply going to start out once more? And if that’s the case, what’s that going to seem like?
It’s very potential. Whether or not that occurs on Sunday morning, I’m unsure. It’s in all probability extra probably that the ceasefire would stutter on for somewhat bit longer, however it’s potential that the battle might resume. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel stated as a lot earlier this week.
He stated that Israel is prepared to return to battle. And we perceive from our personal reporting that there are very intensive plans in place to return to combating.
So mainly, the choices listed below are return to battle or make some kind of short-term extension of the ceasefire. However are there any longer-term choices on the desk for a sturdy peace deal?
There are many long run choices which were steered by governments, analysts, politicians, diplomats, Arabs, Israelis, Westerners. None of them are notably viable as a result of all of them require a level of compromise from the 2 most important actors.
[INTRIGUING MUSIC]
Maybe probably the most dramatic and consequential has been the one proposed in current weeks by President Trump himself.
- archived recording (donald trump)
-
It’s important to be taught from historical past. Historical past has — you simply can’t let it preserve repeating itself. We’ve got a chance to do one thing that may very well be phenomenal. And I don’t need to be cute. I don’t need to be a smart man. However the Riviera of the Center East, this may very well be one thing that may very well be so — this may very well be so magnificent. However extra importantly than that’s the folks that —
We’ll be proper again.
So, Patrick, how has President Trump’s quote unquote, “Riviera” imaginative and prescient of the Gaza Strip affected the negotiations over the ceasefire and what comes subsequent for Gaza?
Properly, let’s simply begin with what the plan truly was.
- archived recording (donald trump)
-
At present, I’m delighted to welcome Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu again to the White Home.
This was a proposal put forth by President Trump, within the White Home, in a seemingly impromptu means, as he stood at a lectern beside the Israeli Prime Minister a couple of weeks in the past.
- archived recording (donald trump)
-
The US will take over the Gaza Strip, and we are going to do a job with it, too.
And on this proposal, President Trump steered depopulating Gaza —
- archived recording (donald trump)
-
As a result of they’re residing in hell. And people individuals will now be capable of stay in peace. We’ll ensure that it’s performed world class. It is going to be fantastic for the individuals. Palestinians — Palestinians largely, we’re speaking about.
— primarily forcing its two million residents to depart their houses and stay for years in primarily Egypt and likewise Jordan.
- archived recording (donald trump)
-
And other people can stay in concord and in peace. Thanks all very a lot. Thanks. Thanks very a lot. Thanks.
And this was such an outlandish proposal that nobody actually knew what to do with it. Did the president of the US actually assume it could be potential to maneuver two million individuals from one a part of the world to a different?
Proper. So that is truly a extra excessive proposal than any American president, I believe, has proposed in trendy occasions, if not ever. So what has the response to it been?
In Israel, there’s been a mix of enthusiasm and warning — enthusiasm from the Israeli proper. For years, the Israeli rightwing has wished Israel to return to Gaza, which it occupied wholly between 1967 and 2005, and re-establish Israeli settlements all through the territory.
Then there’s the Israeli heart that’s extra cautious, that sees this as a pie-in-the-sky sort of plan that might trigger extra disruption than it’s price. After which from the Palestinians, you will have a sense of abject horror, that 75 years after a whole lot of hundreds of Palestinians have been pressured to depart their houses or fled their houses in the course of the wars surrounding Israel’s creation, now one other era of Palestinians would in flip themselves be pressured to depart their houses for the second time in two or three generations.
Sure, and I can think about to these Palestinians, it could really feel lots like a second expulsion.
Precisely. In 1948, within the wars surrounding Israel’s creation, someplace north of 700,000 Palestinians fled or have been pressured to flee their houses in what has turn into the sort of foundational trauma of Palestinian historical past, referred to by Palestinians and, certainly throughout the Arab world, because the Nakba, or in English, disaster.
And the sense that two million Palestinians in 2025 may very well be pressured to depart their houses, nevertheless a lot this has been portrayed as a humanitarian gesture by the Trump administration, feels very very like a second Nakba.
And the place are the Arab nations in all of this, those that Trump talks about in his plan, Jordan and Egypt and others? As a result of Trump is mainly suggesting that they must absorb tens of millions of Palestinian refugees. So what have they stated in response to that concept?
Properly, at first they displayed the identical sort of horror and anger that we noticed from Palestinians, partly out of solidarity for the Palestinian trigger, but additionally the necessity to look after and supply for such a lot of individuals was thought of an immensely destabilizing thought that might have each created social and political chaos for the Egyptian and Jordanian governments. In order that they rejected this plan. After which progressively, out of that horror and rejection got here a barely totally different response, which was not acceptance, however it was the belief that the Egyptians, the Jordanians, the Saudis, different main Arab nations which are allied with the US, wanted to provide you with their very own response, their very own proposal for the governance of post-war Gaza.
And that’s precisely what we see taking place within the capitals of the Arab world immediately.
What’s actually putting right here is that mainly, to place it one other means, even when all these Arab nations hated this concept that Trump floated on the market, it does truly gentle a fireplace beneath them to satisfy and begin discussing different choices.
That’s a technique of placing it. And it’s also now what the Trump administration and its high envoys are saying was the intention of President Trump when he made this proposal within the first place. Steve Witkoff, his Center East envoy, stated final week that President Trump didn’t imply this actually. He meant to get the Arab world speaking and proposing their very own concepts to assist attempt to break this impasse about Gaza’s future that has been hanging over the area for the final 16 months, if not the final 75 years.
What sort of plan are they speaking about precisely? And extra importantly, how wouldn’t it truly work?
It’s not but clear. The leaders of the Arab world, or most of them, met final week in Riyadh to try to thrash out a proposal. They’re meant to satisfy once more subsequent week in Cairo to speak extra. From what we perceive about what’s being mentioned at these conferences, the primary proposals are for the leaders of the Arab world to have some sort of oversight over a neighborhood Palestinian governing authority that doesn’t embrace Hamas in alternate for Israel promising that sooner or later sooner or later, Gaza and the West Financial institution, the opposite most important territory the place Palestinians stay beneath Israeli occupation, will be capable of turn into their very own sovereign Palestinian state.
The issue with this proposal is that it requires each Hamas to surrender energy and Israel to vow Palestinian sovereignty. Neither of these two issues appear very probably in the mean time.
Proper, as a result of mainly, both sides needs one thing that the opposite aspect, a minimum of at this level, is totally unwilling to surrender.
Precisely. That was the case earlier than President Trump made his proposal, and it stays the case now. And the entire thing is paying homage to attempting to unravel a Rubik’s dice. You flip the dice in a single route, and also you deliver two squares barely nearer to the place you need them to be. However on the similar time, you dislodge one other sq., bringing your self again to the place you have been a second in the past.
Within the negotiations to try to resolve the Rubik’s dice of the Gaza Conflict, all sides, together with a number of the individuals attempting to mediate, have gotten their very own preconditions and personal desired finish objectives which are fully incompatible with these of the others. And to be particular, Israel needs a post-war Gaza that doesn’t contain Hamas governing it or exerting any sort of army energy. Hamas needs a post-war Gaza by which it nonetheless performs a major political function, and it nonetheless will get to maintain its army wing intact, posing a menace, conceivably, to Israel.
In the meantime, you even have the Arab leaders from Egypt, Jordan, and elsewhere now attempting to supply their very own midway home that may contain Hamas stepping down. But in addition in alternate for his or her involvement, Israel would want to vow to offer the Palestinians a state. Israel can be proud of the primary bit, eliminating Hamas. They’d not be proud of the second bit, giving the Palestinians a state.
This truly sounds tougher than a Rubik’s dice. Individuals have truly solved a Rubik’s dice.
Precisely. And the riddle of Gaza has not been solved within the final 16 months of battle, but additionally probably not over the past 75 years of the Israeli-Palestinian battle. Ever since Israel was established in 1948, the way forward for Gaza has been a conundrum that nobody has been in a position to actually resolve, least of all now.
On the one hand, Patrick, it seems like we’re precisely the place we have been earlier than the battle began, besides clearly now there are tens of hundreds of people who find themselves lifeless. There are extra people who find themselves traumatized and radicalized. However then again, we do have a few of these leaders within the Arab world on the negotiating desk. And so it seems like possibly there’s this slight risk that Trump could have thrown a sufficiently big curveball into the combination that the logjam might truly be damaged, resolve the riddle of Gaza, as you referred to as it.
So are you able to simply assist put this all into perspective for us?
Properly, one of many implicit penalties of President Trump proposing such a dramatic plan is it actually underscored the concept that Trump is performing in lockstep with Israeli pursuits much more than President Biden was perceived to be.
[PENSIVE MUSIC]
The supporters of that method say that it’s more likely to place extra strain on Hamas to compromise, as a result of it believes that there isn’t any daylight between Israel and its greatest benefactor, the US. The critics of that method say that reasonably than making Hamas extra more likely to compromise, it’ll, in actual fact, make Israel much less more likely to compromise as a result of it believes that it will probably return to battle, return to the sorts of lethal and bloody combating that we noticed till January with the US’ full help. And that raises the specter of the ceasefire breaking down, if not in days, then a minimum of in weeks, and a return to the devastating destruction that we’ve seen over the past 16 months.
Patrick, thanks very a lot.
Thanks, Rachel.
We’ll be proper again.
Right here’s what else you have to know immediately. On Tuesday, a gaggle of federal tech staff resigned reasonably than assist Elon Musk and his allies with their agenda to dramatically reshape the federal authorities. In a scathing letter to the White Home, the 21 workers of the US Digital Service stated they might not help what they described because the breaking of vital programs and the mishandling of delicate information. The resignations come after Musk’s Division of Authorities Effectivity, in simply over one month, has ended contracts, laid off staff, and shuttered whole federal companies.
And, in a serious concession to President Trump, Ukraine has agreed to offer the US cash from its mineral sources. The deal follows an intense strain marketing campaign that included threats and insults, as Trump more and more pressed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy for a, quote, unquote, “payback” in alternate for continued help in Ukraine’s battle with Russia. The main points of the deal aren’t clear but, together with whether or not President Trump has dedicated any particular safety help in any respect.
At present’s episode was produced by Rachelle Bonja, Caitlin O’Keefe, Michael Simon Johnson, and Jessica Cheung. It was edited by Patricia Willens with assist from Paige Cowett. Particular because of Adam Rasgon. Accommodates unique music by Diane Wong, Rowan Niemisto, and Marion Lozano, and was engineered by Chris Wooden. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.
[THEME MUSIC]
That’s it for “The Each day.” I’m Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.